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Avenger
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 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Help end wage-slavery |
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<rdubose@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:d6a8102f-6cc7-416e-83bb-6d15775869b8@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 13, 5:26 am, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 13, 5:52 am, tadchem <tadc...@comcast.net> wrote:
Consider how well governments have done running things like a health
care system (the Veteran's Administration), mass transit (AMTRAK), and
the wars on poverty, terrorism, and so on.
Well, the basic income is too simple to run incompetently, so that's
not a concern. It's true that it would be accompanied by universal
health care, but the experience of other countries that have it shows
that it's not that bad. Mostly your assertions are just rhetoric.
Unfortunately, in the real world there are people who will kick back
and do nothing but whine (as Phil Gramm pointed out) while expecting
the government to give them everything they ask for free. Some people
just don't have the personal motivation to live as Libertarians - to
"Live Free of Die".
Freedom to work for a corporate master is not freedom. 'Whining'
has nothing to do with it.
Socialism rapidly degenerates into first a feudal system and then an
autocracy.
And I suppose you could cite some real examples of this
transformation?
Do you REALLY want your whole life run by under-motivated civil
servants who have no personal knowledge of your situation and no
vested interest in improving it? People who can sit and watch, doing
nothing as a patient spends 24 hours dying from DVT while waiting in
an *Emergency Room*?
Government health care could actually prevent such tragedies;
private health care has no incentive to, especially in the form
in which we implement it. A truly private health system would
involve everyone paying cash up front and I don't see anyone
proposing that.
Andrew Usher
|
I do see the logic in your ideas. Your proposal is not all bad. I am
afraid however that in practice the truism, "Character is Destiny"
would still exert itself. IOWs, way too many people and groups would
convert those monthly checks straight into booze and crack
They're doing it now. A good 10% of the US lives this way. You want to make
it 90%?
and never
do anything useful or located in reality their whole lives. THe
Founders of this country mostly agreed that a system like ours really
only can work when the bulk of the people act for the most part in
socially responsible ways.
The population back then was mostly homogenous and literate. Craftsmen and
workers were well paid and lived decently for the time.
Freedom, at the end of the day, cannot
exist for long unless it is generally understood to mean freedom to
choose your own way to be industrious and un-hurtful. And how would
having children grow up (all children not just from loser/dependency
ridden groups) believing from birth that no effort from them is
required to be a member in good standing? Why is it that there is so
much downward mobility in America? Lots of kids of the successful fail
to develop the drive and sense of realism needed to get off their
asses.
Well, it's even higher among the unsucessful. At least the children of the
sucessful had a good model and probably got some education pounded into
their heads. The lower orders are completely lost with only rare exceptions.
I am of the opinion that the difference between progressive successful
societies and the other kind is found in how the top half behaves and
not in regard to the bottom layers. Inert, stoned, criminal folks are
the same everywhere. The question is, do the potential winners make a
dash for it or not.
So, is a trust fund from birth more like a cup of coffee in the
morning or a bong-hit of weed?
From what I've seen it's more like a sedative. |
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Viking
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Help end wage-slavery |
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On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 05:30:23 -0700 (PDT), Tomoko Kanazawa dom arigato
<huangxienchen@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Economists and rich people everywhere will criticize this and probably
try to kill you.
Here's an interesting question. When we finally have enough robots and
automation to do "all" of the work, what will people do with
themselves ?
|
Starve. It's the people who OWN the robots that will prosper. |
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Fred Kasner
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Help end wage-slavery |
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Avenger wrote:
| Quote: |
rdubose@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:d6a8102f-6cc7-416e-83bb-6d15775869b8@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 13, 5:26 am, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 13, 5:52 am, tadchem <tadc...@comcast.net> wrote:
Consider how well governments have done running things like a health
care system (the Veteran's Administration), mass transit (AMTRAK), and
the wars on poverty, terrorism, and so on.
Well, the basic income is too simple to run incompetently, so that's
not a concern. It's true that it would be accompanied by universal
health care, but the experience of other countries that have it shows
that it's not that bad. Mostly your assertions are just rhetoric.
Unfortunately, in the real world there are people who will kick back
and do nothing but whine (as Phil Gramm pointed out) while expecting
the government to give them everything they ask for free. Some people
just don't have the personal motivation to live as Libertarians - to
"Live Free of Die".
Freedom to work for a corporate master is not freedom. 'Whining'
has nothing to do with it.
Socialism rapidly degenerates into first a feudal system and then an
autocracy.
And I suppose you could cite some real examples of this
transformation?
Do you REALLY want your whole life run by under-motivated civil
servants who have no personal knowledge of your situation and no
vested interest in improving it? People who can sit and watch, doing
nothing as a patient spends 24 hours dying from DVT while waiting in
an *Emergency Room*?
Government health care could actually prevent such tragedies;
private health care has no incentive to, especially in the form
in which we implement it. A truly private health system would
involve everyone paying cash up front and I don't see anyone
proposing that.
Andrew Usher
I do see the logic in your ideas. Your proposal is not all bad. I am
afraid however that in practice the truism, "Character is Destiny"
would still exert itself. IOWs, way too many people and groups would
convert those monthly checks straight into booze and crack
They're doing it now. A good 10% of the US lives this way. You want to make
it 90%?
and never
do anything useful or located in reality their whole lives. THe
Founders of this country mostly agreed that a system like ours really
only can work when the bulk of the people act for the most part in
socially responsible ways.
The population back then was mostly homogenous and literate. Craftsmen and
workers were well paid and lived decently for the time.
Freedom, at the end of the day, cannot
exist for long unless it is generally understood to mean freedom to
choose your own way to be industrious and un-hurtful. And how would
having children grow up (all children not just from loser/dependency
ridden groups) believing from birth that no effort from them is
required to be a member in good standing? Why is it that there is so
much downward mobility in America? Lots of kids of the successful fail
to develop the drive and sense of realism needed to get off their
asses.
Well, it's even higher among the unsucessful. At least the children of the
sucessful had a good model and probably got some education pounded into
their heads. The lower orders are completely lost with only rare exceptions.
I am of the opinion that the difference between progressive successful
societies and the other kind is found in how the top half behaves and
not in regard to the bottom layers. Inert, stoned, criminal folks are
the same everywhere. The question is, do the potential winners make a
dash for it or not.
So, is a trust fund from birth more like a cup of coffee in the
morning or a bong-hit of weed?
From what I've seen it's more like a sedative.
|
You are totally wrong about the claim that in the late 18th century
craftsmen and workers were well paid and live decently for the time. The
thing that kept the population from pressuring the Indians and grabbing
more land on the frontier was that most people did not have much if any
financial resources. Land was the great attraction since if you could
successfully farm well chosen land you could manage to live off the land
and generate enough income to purchase those small essentials that any
household needed and each generation could increase in material wealth
generated by very hard labor and shortened life spans. The women were
worked to death. Only those who managed to marry a rich man could count
on a reasonable life span. Those who married poor were sure to perish
from overwork. And when those who had no land entered the factories they
were doomed. The budding capitalists who built factories were without
any hearts at all. They worked women and young people until they
dropped. Any attempt a labor activism led to immediate firing. It was a
tough life.
FK |
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trigonometry1972@gmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Libertarianism is FORCE (was Re: Help end wage-slavery) |
|
|
On Jul 12, 5:40 pm, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 12, 6:10 pm, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
Andrew Usher wrote:
On Jul 12, 9:54 am, Uncle Al <Uncle...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
If you think things are expensive when you pay for them, just wait
until the government gives them to you for free. Government cannot
award people what it first has not stolen from them. What one man
receives without effort is confiscated from another who labors.
1) Do not penalize the productive.
2) Do not reward the unproductive.
3) Bottom line: Do NOTHING - no social engineering.
4) All economic problems will solve themselves within 90 days.
5) The alternative is mathematically inevitable utter ruin,
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/comprom.htm
We are from the government. We are here to help ourselves to you.. We
have come for a piece of all mankind.
This isn't an argument and I'm well out of high school.
Your 'plan' is nothing.
That's right, nothing. No government interference except for the big
things like national defense and currency - then, good and hard. The
indigent will not starve less State-mandated charity. They will work
or starve. That's a good choice. That is always the best choice
throughout history. If you cannot afford medical care you die, or
medical care recouples price and cost. Hey homie, don't get shot or
stabbed in a gang turf war without a bankroll.
Uncle Al should be thanked for demonstrating what is only
implicit in the arguments of most libertarians: namely, that
libertarianism isn't really an ideology at all, it has no
intellectual argument behind it, it is simply force in the
service of the corporate slave-masters, lies to persuade
the proles that they're really good for us. Hence it deserves
zero credibility.
Why do libertarians think this way? It is because they
fantasise they they are such special people that they
would 'make it' in any social system, so no matter what
help they needed to get where they are, they can
rationalise that as irrelevant.
Andrew Usher
|
I see Al viewpoints are those of an old line Progressive based on a
Darwinian
survival of the fittest concept. Libertarians will proposed one
damaged
by pollution sue the polluter, but of course the "conservatives"
have cap damages and stacked the deck in the legal systems.
This is all a dance. When a party is out of power it can propose
its "ideal" solutions but once in power it has its set of
less than ideal solutions. The far Left read the far Right and
they both copy each other. And the middle parties are often
rotten to the core and are beholden to those who brought
to the big party.
All government steal whether they are Libertarian, Progressive,
Representative,
Democratic, or Autocratic. In a pinch they will draft the young and
the able to offer on the alter of Mars. Does this prevent worse
things? Sometimes but often not. |
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rdubose@pdq.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: Help end wage-slavery |
|
|
On Jul 15, 1:19 pm, "Avenger" <aven...@avengers.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Fred Kasner" <fkas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:urQek.4941$np7.1929@flpi149.ffdc.sbc.com...
Avenger wrote:
rdub...@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:d6a8102f-6cc7-416e-83bb-6d15775869b8@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com....
On Jul 13, 5:26 am, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 13, 5:52 am, tadchem <tadc...@comcast.net> wrote:
Consider how well governments have done running things like a health
care system (the Veteran's Administration), mass transit (AMTRAK), and
the wars on poverty, terrorism, and so on.
Well, the basic income is too simple to run incompetently, so that's
not a concern. It's true that it would be accompanied by universal
health care, but the experience of other countries that have it shows
that it's not that bad. Mostly your assertions are just rhetoric.
Unfortunately, in the real world there are people who will kick back
and do nothing but whine (as Phil Gramm pointed out) while expecting
the government to give them everything they ask for free. Some people
just don't have the personal motivation to live as Libertarians - to
"Live Free of Die".
Freedom to work for a corporate master is not freedom. 'Whining'
has nothing to do with it.
Socialism rapidly degenerates into first a feudal system and then an
autocracy.
And I suppose you could cite some real examples of this
transformation?
Do you REALLY want your whole life run by under-motivated civil
servants who have no personal knowledge of your situation and no
vested interest in improving it? People who can sit and watch, doing
nothing as a patient spends 24 hours dying from DVT while waiting in
an *Emergency Room*?
Government health care could actually prevent such tragedies;
private health care has no incentive to, especially in the form
in which we implement it. A truly private health system would
involve everyone paying cash up front and I don't see anyone
proposing that.
Andrew Usher
I do see the logic in your ideas. Your proposal is not all bad. I am
afraid however that in practice the truism, "Character is Destiny"
would still exert itself. IOWs, way too many people and groups would
convert those monthly checks straight into booze and crack
They're doing it now. A good 10% of the US lives this way. You want to
make it 90%?
and never
do anything useful or located in reality their whole lives. THe
Founders of this country mostly agreed that a system like ours really
only can work when the bulk of the people act for the most part in
socially responsible ways.
The population back then was mostly homogenous and literate. Craftsmen
and workers were well paid and lived decently for the time.
Freedom, at the end of the day, cannot
exist for long unless it is generally understood to mean freedom to
choose your own way to be industrious and un-hurtful. And how would
having children grow up (all children not just from loser/dependency
ridden groups) believing from birth that no effort from them is
required to be a member in good standing? Why is it that there is so
much downward mobility in America? Lots of kids of the successful fail
to develop the drive and sense of realism needed to get off their
asses.
Well, it's even higher among the unsucessful. At least the children of
the sucessful had a good model and probably got some education pounded
into their heads. The lower orders are completely lost with only rare
exceptions.
I am of the opinion that the difference between progressive successful
societies and the other kind is found in how the top half behaves and
not in regard to the bottom layers. Inert, stoned, criminal folks are
the same everywhere. The question is, do the potential winners make a
dash for it or not.
So, is a trust fund from birth more like a cup of coffee in the
morning or a bong-hit of weed?
From what I've seen it's more like a sedative.
You are totally wrong about the claim that in the late 18th century
craftsmen and workers were well paid and live decently for the time. The
thing that kept the population from pressuring the Indians and grabbing
more land on the frontier was that most people did not have much if any
financial resources. Land was the great attraction
Land was given to people like the Penns etc and protected by the British
military which is what those tiny taxes were paying for.It was very hard to
get people to live in the colonies without some incentives and there was a
shortage of labour.
since if you could
successfully farm well
What makes you think it was all about farming? NY the largest city was more
about trading.
chosen land you could manage to live off the land
and generate enough income to purchase those small essentials that any
household needed and each generation could increase in material wealth
generated by very hard labor and shortened life spans. The women were
worked to death. Only those who managed to marry a rich man could count on
a reasonable life span.
Nonsense. Even the slaves in the south in the US had a relatively easy life
compared to the rest of the world.
Those who married poor were sure to perish
from overwork. And when those who had no land entered the factories they
were doomed.
What factories existed in 1780 in the US? In fact, that was one of the
reasons the greedy colonists declared independence;to be able to manufacture
their own goods rather than send the raw materials to England.
The budding capitalists who built factories were without
any hearts at all. They worked women and young people until they dropped.
Any attempt a labor activism led to immediate firing. It was a tough life.
Go back to school, brainwashed fool.
FK- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
|
THe "difficulties" between the colonists and the Mother Country really
had nothing to do with taxes or economics. That was just a cover story
that was convenient to both sides. The real question was, "Will the
American land mass be under local, unified political control or not?"
Despite an abundance of good will towards their American cousins, the
British ruling class was finally not willing to let them take control
of the whole continent no matter how friendly the Americans might be
towards GB. IOWs, divide to conquer was a fixed idea in London which
could not be given up in those days. The underlying problem for London
was that the elites in America had such stratospheric notions of their
own destiny, no rope or bridle could ever be kept on them for long.
And the bulk of the Scots-Irish colonial underclass were not going to
be pro-British now were they? |
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Avenger
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: Re: Help end wage-slavery |
|
|
"Fred Kasner" <fkasner@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:urQek.4941$np7.1929@flpi149.ffdc.sbc.com...
| Quote: |
Avenger wrote:
rdubose@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:d6a8102f-6cc7-416e-83bb-6d15775869b8@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 13, 5:26 am, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Jul 13, 5:52 am, tadchem <tadc...@comcast.net> wrote:
Consider how well governments have done running things like a health
care system (the Veteran's Administration), mass transit (AMTRAK), and
the wars on poverty, terrorism, and so on.
Well, the basic income is too simple to run incompetently, so that's
not a concern. It's true that it would be accompanied by universal
health care, but the experience of other countries that have it shows
that it's not that bad. Mostly your assertions are just rhetoric.
Unfortunately, in the real world there are people who will kick back
and do nothing but whine (as Phil Gramm pointed out) while expecting
the government to give them everything they ask for free. Some people
just don't have the personal motivation to live as Libertarians - to
"Live Free of Die".
Freedom to work for a corporate master is not freedom. 'Whining'
has nothing to do with it.
Socialism rapidly degenerates into first a feudal system and then an
autocracy.
And I suppose you could cite some real examples of this
transformation?
Do you REALLY want your whole life run by under-motivated civil
servants who have no personal knowledge of your situation and no
vested interest in improving it? People who can sit and watch, doing
nothing as a patient spends 24 hours dying from DVT while waiting in
an *Emergency Room*?
Government health care could actually prevent such tragedies;
private health care has no incentive to, especially in the form
in which we implement it. A truly private health system would
involve everyone paying cash up front and I don't see anyone
proposing that.
Andrew Usher
I do see the logic in your ideas. Your proposal is not all bad. I am
afraid however that in practice the truism, "Character is Destiny"
would still exert itself. IOWs, way too many people and groups would
convert those monthly checks straight into booze and crack
They're doing it now. A good 10% of the US lives this way. You want to
make it 90%?
and never
do anything useful or located in reality their whole lives. THe
Founders of this country mostly agreed that a system like ours really
only can work when the bulk of the people act for the most part in
socially responsible ways.
The population back then was mostly homogenous and literate. Craftsmen
and workers were well paid and lived decently for the time.
Freedom, at the end of the day, cannot
exist for long unless it is generally understood to mean freedom to
choose your own way to be industrious and un-hurtful. And how would
having children grow up (all children not just from loser/dependency
ridden groups) believing from birth that no effort from them is
required to be a member in good standing? Why is it that there is so
much downward mobility in America? Lots of kids of the successful fail
to develop the drive and sense of realism needed to get off their
asses.
Well, it's even higher among the unsucessful. At least the children of
the sucessful had a good model and probably got some education pounded
into their heads. The lower orders are completely lost with only rare
exceptions.
I am of the opinion that the difference between progressive successful
societies and the other kind is found in how the top half behaves and
not in regard to the bottom layers. Inert, stoned, criminal folks are
the same everywhere. The question is, do the potential winners make a
dash for it or not.
So, is a trust fund from birth more like a cup of coffee in the
morning or a bong-hit of weed?
From what I've seen it's more like a sedative.
You are totally wrong about the claim that in the late 18th century
craftsmen and workers were well paid and live decently for the time. The
thing that kept the population from pressuring the Indians and grabbing
more land on the frontier was that most people did not have much if any
financial resources. Land was the great attraction
|
Land was given to people like the Penns etc and protected by the British
military which is what those tiny taxes were paying for.It was very hard to
get people to live in the colonies without some incentives and there was a
shortage of labour.
since if you could
| Quote: |
successfully farm well
|
What makes you think it was all about farming? NY the largest city was more
about trading.
chosen land you could manage to live off the land
| Quote: |
and generate enough income to purchase those small essentials that any
household needed and each generation could increase in material wealth
generated by very hard labor and shortened life spans. The women were
worked to death. Only those who managed to marry a rich man could count on
a reasonable life span.
|
Nonsense. Even the slaves in the south in the US had a relatively easy life
compared to the rest of the world.
Those who married poor were sure to perish
| Quote: |
from overwork. And when those who had no land entered the factories they
were doomed.
|
What factories existed in 1780 in the US? In fact, that was one of the
reasons the greedy colonists declared independence;to be able to manufacture
their own goods rather than send the raw materials to England.
The budding capitalists who built factories were without
| Quote: |
any hearts at all. They worked women and young people until they dropped.
Any attempt a labor activism led to immediate firing. It was a tough life.
|
Go back to school, brainwashed fool.
> FK |
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Huang
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Help end wage-slavery |
|
|
On Jul 16, 8:17 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
| Quote: |
Avenger wrote:
snip
What factories existed in 1780 in the US?
You really do need to learn how things were.
|
Heh. That was the best time manufacturers ever enjoyed.
Agriculture,
Textiles,
Coatings,
Lumber,
Iron,
Bronze,
Coal,
and of course Human Trafficing (Slavery) which still exists today.
| Quote: |
In fact, that was one of the
reasons the greedy colonists declared independence;to be able to manufacture
their own goods rather than send the raw materials to England.
|
Wrong. The problem was taxation without representation. A problem
which is even worse today than it was back then.
And if you think that you are represented by your government, just
call them on the phone sometime and you'll find out how sincerely they
care about your problems. Think "Hurricane Katrina", or maybe Waco.
I feel very RIPPED OFF by my so-called government because I have PAID $
$$$$$ hard earned TAX MONEY for them to defend the constitution, and
all I get is a government that SPIES ON ME, they legalize their own
crimes as if such a thing were possible, domestic SPYING, exporting
TORTURE, and refusing to enforce existing laws such as Immigration
laws. The whole thing adds up to a very bleak picture of a bunch of
desperate men in expensive suits who are NOT really Americans who are
simply pulling the strings, but in reality they all belong in JAIL.
The last thing that they want, the thing that they fear is pure
Democracy. They fear living in a society where people actually vote on
issues and self govern themselves by referrendum. They fear it because
they would lose their precious power which clearly they have abused,
and continue to abuse without shame.
We need to have referrendums on EVERYTHING. No politician should EVER
make a decision on ANYTHING. Everything should be decided by
referrendum !!!!!!! |
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jmfbahciv
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Help end wage-slavery |
|
|
Avenger wrote:
<snip>
| Quote: |
What factories existed in 1780 in the US?
|
You really do need to learn how things were.
| Quote: |
In fact, that was one of the
reasons the greedy colonists declared independence;to be able to manufacture
their own goods rather than send the raw materials to England.
|
Which were?
<snip>
/BAH |
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jmfbahciv
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Help end wage-slavery |
|
|
Huang wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jul 16, 8:17 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
Avenger wrote:
snip
What factories existed in 1780 in the US?
You really do need to learn how things were.
Heh. That was the best time manufacturers ever enjoyed.
Agriculture,
Textiles,
|
I worked in one of those New England Mills. The floors were
so soaked with lanolin, they were slippery. Fire drills were
no joking matter. I had a pair of shoes with wooden heels;
if I walked too fast, I would slip and slide.
/BAH |
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Huang
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:29 am Post subject: Re: Help end wage-slavery |
|
|
On Jul 16, 9:13 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
| Quote: |
Huang wrote:
On Jul 16, 8:17 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
Avenger wrote:
snip
What factories existed in 1780 in the US?
You really do need to learn how things were.
Heh. That was the best time manufacturers ever enjoyed.
Agriculture,
Textiles,
I worked in one of those New England Mills. The floors were
so soaked with lanolin, they were slippery. Fire drills were
no joking matter. I had a pair of shoes with wooden heels;
if I walked too fast, I would slip and slide.
/BAH
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One of the first big industries in the colonies was making pitch
coatings for ships and whatever else they put it on. One hell of a
coating material, it was a big business.
There are some old blast furnaces which have fallen into ruin in the
eastern states. I saw a photo of one, really quite amazing. Quite
interesting how they did things back then. |
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